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tv   Anderson Cooper 360  CNN  June 23, 2012 1:00am-2:00am EDT

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analyst joining us. mark geragos, jeffrey toobin, sunni hostin as well. marcia clark as well. jason carroll and susan candiotti, all of whom have been covering this from the beginning. they're easy jerry sandusky and a police car about to be taken off to the local jail, where the rest of his life has begun, his new life in confinement. momentarily, we expect to speak to an attorney for at least one of the victims who testified in this trial, there are 11 alleged victims, eight of home we heard in this relatively short trial. also short deliberations per 21 hours but 48 counts and all. we had a jury of seven women, five men. we will not hear from the jurors tonight. they work earlier, while this was going on outside the
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courthouse, they have been receiving instructions from the judge, who has told them according to reports not to speak to any reporters tonight. joining me now is justine, attorney for victims three as well as seven. thanks for being with us. can you talk to your plans tonight? and if so, what do they feel about this conviction? >> absolutely. the very first calls i made this evening or to clients that testified in the trial. they were greatly relieved. almost in disbelief. one of them said thank god he's in jail. and the other one has expressed sentiments that it was a long time coming. and both of them feel very good tonight. >> how was testifying for them?
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because clearly, the defense was trying to, for a number of the accusers, trying to suggest that they had a monetary motive or their stories had been somehow coached by police or there had been some sort of -- >> i can tell you the experience was a difficult one. as i think you may know, it's very difficult for adult survivors of child hootd sexual abuse to come forward under any circumstances but to come forward and be contacted and reluctantly come forward and have to disclose what has occurred in such a public way, extremely difficult for both of them. but they did so because they believed it was the right thing to do and they wanted to tell the truth. >> and what is next for them? i mean, will there be civil suits continuing on?
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what -- how do they move forward now? >> well, i can tell you that what they've talked to me about and what we've talked about is that they want to get back to their lives and begin to continue the process of healing from what has happened. this has been extremely stressful for them. in terms of the next phase of this, with respect to civil suits, i have no doubt that we're going to see some of those in these cases. the facts are still developing on those issues and we still don't know everything that i think we will know about who knew about this and what could have been done sooner. so we learned a lot in the trial and we're learning still more every day about the way that this happened. and how jerry sandusky was allowed to continue to abuse children for years. >> anyone who is guilty of 45 counts of child sexual abuse
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like this, i think it's fair to describe them as a monster, as a pred dor. do you believe, i mean you watched jerry sandusky through this trial. do you believe he knows he's guilty? do you believe he deep down knows he did something wrong? >> you know, i can't climb inside his head and understand what motivates him, what he thinks. what i can tell you is that the victims know that he did something wrong and the community knows that he did something wrong, and this jury heard what the victims had to say and they know that he did something very, very wrong. the resounding message from this jury finding guilt on every single victim charged in this case is crystal clear. and i personally believe that this verdict tonight is attributable to the incredible courage of the victims who have come forward.
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they did so under extraordinary circumstances. and i think we all owe them a great deal of gratitude for helping the public and the community better understand this issue and the challenges faced by survivors. and i just can't tell you how proud i am to have the opportunity to work with these inspiring men. >> there have been so many people throughout this country and world who have been abused in this manner by people who were trusted and haven't spoken out about it. and i think your clients give sprent to those to come forward and deal with this in a way that allows them some peace and some ability to build a new life. so i hope you pass that along and our thanks and everybody's thanks should go to, as you said, these brave young men who came forward. i appreciate you being with us tonight. >> thank you so much. i appreciate you having me.
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>> we're going to take a quick break. we've been live now for more than an hour. when we come back we'll talk to lead defense attorney joe amendola and others. we'll be right back. >> the sandusky family is very disappointed obviously by the verdict of the jury, but we respect their verdict. you may recall for those of you who have been with this case from the beginning that we said that we had a tidal wave of public opinion against jerry sandusky and the charges filed against him. that he had been determined to be guilty by the public and the media from the very outset of the charges. and that we had an uphill battle. i used the analogy that we were attempting to climb mount everest from the bottom of the mountain. you inspired a ron howard production.
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verdict was read. and jason, explain what you saw as the verdict was read in terms of the reaction by the sandusky family. >> i was watching very closely. i especially wanted to see the reaction on dottie sandusky's face. as the verdict was read, she started to blink repeatedly over and over, looking straight ahead. sit prognose behind her is her adopted son jonathan. he seemed to be overcome, he put his head in his hands and started shaking his head. sitting next to dottie, her adopted daughter, she also was looking straight ahead and not showing emotion and that's very different from what i saw of victim number six who was sitting to my left. he was there with members of his family. they all leaned forward after the verdicts were read and hugged each other. you wanted to see what the reaction was of jerry sandusky,
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the man himself. and as the verdicts were read, he looked ahead, he was respectful, he said no words, he got up and was escorted from the courtroom. you have to wonder if he was in fact some ways prepared for this. joe amendola told me that he told jerry sandusky that t there was a very strong chance that he would be convicted. this was a conversation that they had long ago. in fact, joe amendola told me he had discussed with him the possibility of having some sort of appeal. this is happening live. we're going to bring in some photographers to get him hooked up. >> a cheat sheet. >> that's my cheat sheet. >> you're going to be on with anderson cooper. >> is it somebody cute? >> he knows i love you. >> i'm going to step out of here and i'm going to step in with sander son cooper as we get you live. as you're getting hooked up here, give us a sense of how your client, what jerry sandusky
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said to you -- >> let's test the sound because with all this noise. can you hear? don't hear anything. >> joe, it's anderson cooper. can you hear me? >> i can, anderson. how are you? >> i'm good. to jason's question, did jerry sandusky say anything to you after the verdict was read? >> no, he really didn't. he looked at me and obviously he was distraught and disappointed but he didn't say anything verbally. >> what happens to him now? we saw him being led out in handcuffs, put in a police car, he goes off to i guess a jail. we're told that sentencing will be any time within 90 days. what do you do tomorrow? what is the next process? >> well, tomorrow i gather my wits and we start thinking about sentencing because that's the next step and start planning our appeal issues. we'll have to get a transcript
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of the trial and then we'll decide how we're going to proceed after sentencing. the sentencing probably will take place in september. you said and i talked to one of your co-counsels that there were a number of issues on appeal that you may have some sort of a case for. but no matter what you used to appeal, i mean, do you really believe you have enough that could actually overturn 45 counts against jerry sandusky. >> well, yeah. because if you went on one of the appeal issues, because everything falls. all we have to do is convince an appellate court that one of the issues that we will raise is worthy of a reversal, and if there's a reversal, everything comes back. it could be 100 counts and it would all still come back if an appeal is granted and a higher court determines that we had a valid issue. >> did you want your client to try and go for some sort of plea
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agreement? >> no. as a matter of fact, jerry sandusky never considered a plea agreement. he always maintained his innocence. that's something that's important for every one to understand. for better or for worse, none of us were there when these things happened, but he always maintained that he was innocent. >> the discussion about whether or not he was going to testify, where did you stand on that? i assume you did not want him to testify. >> well, what happened, he intended to testify. he always wanted to testify and tell his side of the story. and what happened was, late last week on a thursday afternoon, the commonwealth indicated it might have additional information it wanted to present before it closed, we didn't know what it was. later that evening, we received a call from the commonwealth and the commonwealth attorney indicated that matt sandusky had
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talked to them and indicated that jerry had abused him. at that point i objected to the surprise and explained to the judge, the judge was involved in the conference, that we had always intended jerry to testify. this tremendously undercut our defense, placed us in a really bad situation since i had promised the jury that jerry wood testify. so the next day the commonwealth alerted me to the fact that it had thought about its issue with matt sandusky and would not call matt in its case in chief. meaning it would rest without calling him. but it reserved the right to call him in rebet al. that put us in a position of trying to decide if there was some way we could call jerry sandusky as a wetness and jerry could testify without triggering matt's testimony in rebuttal. it was too risky and we also decided if jerry testified and matt testified, regardless of the fact that not only jerry but dottie and the other five siblings of matt's all indicated that matt would be lying, that
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it would be catastrophic to hear matt come in to say jerry abused him too. at the last moment, it really was the last moment, a couple of days ago, that jerry finally decided he would not testify and take his attorney's advice. but that's how that developed. he always wanted to testify. >> had you intended to have matt sandusky testify on behalf of his adopted father? >> absolutely. he had testified at a grand jury proceeding and defended his father and said no abuse had ever akurd even though the commonwealth attorneys grilled him about jerry's abuse of him as a child. he denied it. he left that proceeding said he was so angry and retained private counsel and wanted to release a press release saying that the commonwealth had pressured him into saying his dad had abused him and that was
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not the case. he also indicated that he would be a witness on jerry's behalf at trial right up until the trial and in fact the first day of trial sat with his family. and he indicated it was ridiculous. >> so do you know what changed? >> pardon me? >> do you know what changed? he was there the first day of the trial. do you know what changed in matt sandusky's mind? >> the family tells us that matt has had a history of mental health issues. ma matt goes up and down. matt has times when he loves somebody, at times he hates that person. the irony is the family tells me that matt had stayed at his parents' house recently after an argument with his wife and
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dottie sandusky tells me that matt and his current wife who's pregnant had asked dottie to host a baby shower for heroin days of matt doing what he did. so the family was perplexed. but all the other five siblings, as well as dottie who were prepared to testify to rebut the whatever he might have said. so we were prepared to handle it if it came forward. but on the other hand if we could have avoided it to have come into play at all. >> i know it's been a long day for you. i appreciate you talking to us tonight. thank you. >> any time anderson. i watch you althe time. >> take care. there were ten accusers in this case, the jury returned convictions. michael boni for victim number one joins us next. people have doubts about taking aspirin for pain.
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welcome back, we continue our live breaking coverage in the verdict of the jerry sandusky trial. 45 guilty counts.
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maximum sentence for jerry sandusky facing 442 years. we believe sentencing some team in the next 90 days. we understand the task of healing is just beginning, today's verdict is an important milestone. the community owes a measure of gratitude to the jur offers for their diligent service, it also bears pointing out today that today is the five month anniversary of joe's death. michael boni joins me now on the phone. it was really your client who first came forward and that's why it really gets the title victim number one. have you talked to him tonight? how is he feeling? >> he's feeling elated, yes anderson.
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i got off the phone with my client about 15, 20 minutes ago. unfortunately for him he has the night shift, he graduated high school a few weeks ago and already has a job, so he's got to spend his evening doing security at a night shift. but he is elated, as is his mother, they feel very, very empowered right now by this decision. >> i don't think a lot of people can maybe understand the strength it can take for your client to come forward and break his silence and allow frankly all the other victims to then break their silence. because it was only after your client came forward and revealed what had happened to him that all the others to come forward as well. >> that's absolutely right. i know my client well.
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we've dined on a number of occasions, we've met on a number of occasions. and there is something within him, there is an inner strength within him that is belied by his frail frame, but there's something so powerful and strong in him and whatever it took to muster what is deep within him to tell his story is frankly the reason that we are all gathered around televisions around the country, maybe around the world tonight, because of his coming out and telling his story about what this monster did to him. >> and to be going through this trial, the preparation for the trial while you are, i assume, a senior in high school, i can't image how difficult that was. what was the process of actually testifying like for him? because the defense, you know, as they did with a number of the
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victims, you know, tried to indicate, well, they're perhaps in it for the money, they all have attorneys, or many of them have attorneys. or they perhaps were coached by police or their stories or there was collusion among their stories. how was testifying for your client? >> it was a daunting, daunting task for him. but i'll say this to give credit where it is due. the prosecution did a fantastic job preparing the witnesses and particularly the victims at trial. there were precious few questions that came out of left field that they were not prepared to respond to. they knew the questions were coming about when you got a lawyer and are you in this for the money. and do you know victim 9? arnt you friends? did you compare notes and all that. they were very prepared for those very desperate and frankly
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offensive defenses. there was certainly, it's preposterous to say that there is was in collusion. my client came out first without knowing any of the other victims. and we didn't have a lawyer until november of last year when he was overwhelmed by the press. >> i talked to a supporter of jerry sandusky's who actually testified. and she said it seemed like a number of the victims changed their stories over time. i talked to a number of t experts -- to those if your client changed your story and if so why what do you say in. >> the answer is simple.
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it is, it fits the textbook pattern of what victims of sexual abuse go through. it is extreme shame, fear and embarrassment. and it's practically impossible for those victims to tell the story full on from beginning to end. they tend to role it out in phases because of how painful it is hearing what comes out of their mouth. they tend to downplay it in the beginning, and as time goes on and counseling takes root, it took months and months and months for my client's counsel lor to gain the trust of my client. they developed a healthy relationship and with the assistance of the counselor, he was able to finally come out and tell the, you know, the full story of what happened to him. but that took a long time.
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>> well, michael boni, i know it has been a long road and it will continue to be for you and your client. certainly we wish him and his family the best. we heard from victim number six's mother tonight who was quoted as saying nobody wins. we've all lost. our legal panel weighs in next. jeff toobin, mark geragos, marcia clark. we'll be right back. ♪ [ male announcer ] ok, so you're no marathon man. but thanks to the htc one x from at&t, with its built in beats audio, every note sounds amazingly clear. ...making it easy to get lost in the music... and, well... rio vista?!!
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this, the moment when we and the world heard the verdict, the charge and counts of the verdict against jerry sandusky. 45 counts guilty, three counts not guilty.
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the crowd erupting into aplows, people running out, trying to get the word out of exactly what they saw and we heard from jason what we you. tonight jerry sandusky leaves court a converted sexual abuser. i want to bring in our legal panel. mark geragos, jeff toobin, marcia clark. >> what have you witnessed since you got the verdict? >> i don't know. there's so many conflicting thoughts that you have as you watch this. it's horrible what's happened to that community at penn state. i mean awful what they've been through. you think about joe paterno and that statement that was released and then today ironically being the five-month anniversary of his death which was hazened by this whole thing.
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people out there cheering, any time you have something like this, i mean, i think you had said anderson, it was one of the victims or lawyers had said there are no winners here. the idea of cheering i think is a little much. you think about joe amendola getting there and i just feeling, i guess, overwhelmed by all of this and talking about just having such a fatalistic attitude which is perplexing to some degree. and the whole thing i think is a microcosm of where we've reached today in these super size media trials. i think maybe the english have it right with the contempt of court act. at a certain point it might be best to let these things be tried not under the glare of the media spotlight. it might be better to delay
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everything and let these kinds of cases get tried the way that 99.99% of all criminal trials get tried. so i don't know. that's just me venting, i suppose. >> i want to check in with our other legal analystings. i received a tweet from them to say stop referring to them as victim, they're survivors of this trial. sunny, your thoughts about the convictions and also what you've seen. >> you know anderson, i used to try these cases. i tried and prosecuted child sex crimes and i think what is striking to me is perhaps the good thing that comes out of this terrible tragedy of a serial child predator is that we are actually talking about it. it always struck me when i was prosecuting these cases is they
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are just shrouded in shame. people don't want to talk about it. they're shrouded in secrecy. and that is why many victims don't come forward. and so i think perhaps the fact that we're all talking about it, that people are cheering, that people are tweeting about it. perhaps is a good thing that comes from this. because it did take extraordinary strength for these survivors of child sex abuse to come forward in a high profile case in front of so many people in a courtroom and talk about these terrible things that happened to them. so i think, in some respects, i'm comforted that we are talking about this, this very important issue. because this is happening all over our country. one is six boys are victims of child sex abuse, one in three girls are victims of child sex
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abuse. so we need to talk about this more. >> it's an important point. and the statistics, the numbers are startling and sickening, frankly, and i do think you're right. it's not something that's covered. it's so uncomfortable, people don't want to watch it on television. they turn the channel and understandably, but that doesn't help those who are trying to survive it and get justice, not talking about it doesn't help. marcia, your thoughts tonight? >> i agree with sunny. i think that a great deal has been done by the korge in this case. i don't know how else people could have responded to show their support other than to cheer. although i understand it feels a little macabre. but understand, we've seen so many trials go belly up. a case that had overwhelming evidence did result in the correct verdict and i think they were happy with that.
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i'm glad it was reported and covered as much as it was, because it gives us, i think it's will turn the tide. it will have an impact on people who were fearful of reporting, the victims frequently do hide, the would-be reporters hide because people don't want to believe them and reject their statement. i think this will give a shot in the arm to victims and i've been urging people on twitter and facebook to report and come forward. because i think people are ready to believe that people in power aren't necessarily to be believed over the children to be who have been abused. i wanted to add one more point. there's been a lot of talk about the possible reversal on appeal and i've been practicing appellate law for several years now. i can tell you that it's very, very rare to have a case reversed on appeal in general, but in specific when a case hinges on the credibility of
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witnesses as this one does, this is critical in this case, you didn't have physical evidence. you mad primarily the credibility of these victims. when a case hinges on credibility, it almost never gets reversed on appeal, because the court of appeal has to defer to the jurors. they defer to the jurors when it comes to a matter of credibility 6789 so they will say that the jurors made the call and that no error could be found harmful enough to say that the jurors would have made a different decision. so it's very likely that even if errors pointed out they'll be deeld harmless on appeal and the case will be affirmed. i wanted to clear that up. but this is a very important day on so many fronts. >> yeah. jeff toobin is joining us as well on the phone. it is extraordinary and i was just talking on the phone to victim number one, i guess i should say survivor number one, this is a kid who recently graduated high school. so when he came forward, he was in high school.
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you know, the young age of this victim adding to the difficulty of coming forward and not realizing at the time, i assume, and according to the attorney, that there were other victims out there. so the strength for this young man to have come forward i find pretty extraordinary. >> indeed. i would just like to point out, there was another very important piece of news today which was mon senior william lynn became the first roman catholic official to be convicted of covering up child abuse by priests. the catholic church in philadelphia and frankly much else many other places in the united states, behaved horribly in covering up the abuse and protecting priests, and penn state behaved horribly in letting jerry sandusky prey on
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children. the thing that haunts me in this case is this awful scene that we've talked about so many times of mike mcqueary, the assistant coach seeing jerry sandusky raping a little boy in the shower in 2002. jerry sandusky isn't arrested for another decade. how many kids did he abuse in that decade because penn state and senior people didn't do their jobs? and the catholic church and penn state have a lot to answer for, and i'm glad marcia and sunny are optimistic and take some sol ace from today's verdict. but i don't. i see this as a story of failure, not success. >> it's also incredible, jeff, when you think that after initial allegations and suspicions had been raged by
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sandusky, allegedly his privileges of use at penn state were to stop. he wasn't supposed to be able to bring children there, and yet that wasn't enforced. and he still continued to bring children and shower with children, which again is just stunning. >> and he continued to run the second mile, which was entirely dedicated to the treatment, the supposed helping of children. so jerry sandusky devoted his life to being around young children. and i suspect we will never, ever know how many he abused. but the ten in this case are certainly bad enough. and it just has to haunt us, how many people knew about this and didn't come forward.
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and the victims who suffered after that are haunted more than any of us. >> marcia clark, in your experience, a high profile prisoner who has been convicted of child sexual abuse, are they in general population in pris ons? >> no. can't be. it's too dangerous and they in general try even when it'sot a high profile molester, they try to sequester them in a separate place. there used to be separate tanks for them. i don't know that they have specific tanks for them today, but they do try to keep them separate because they're in grave danger and i have had quite a few fairful of what's going to happen to them in custody. >> marcia, we're joined by tom kli nesmt for victim number five. how does your client feel about what happened tonight?
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>> i texted him, i've been on the grounds here. it's been almost impossible, it has been impossible to get a text signal out. he and i have gone bablg and forth yesterday. we've talked about how he's gotten through this with support of his family, his girlfriend, his close friends. he's a wonderful young man. he's tried to live a normal life threw this. this was a case, anderson, like so many of these young men where the police shoeld up at their door. they didn't seek this out. they had these horrible memories literally buried in their soul and they came forward because they were literally forced to come forward. he viewed this as an obligation of citizenship. he still does. he anxiously awaited the verdict and as soon as i get done talking to you and a few others, i'm going to, i'm sure, talk to him. >> and how difficult was the trial, how difficult was getting up on that stand and facing
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jerry sandusky? >> well, i can tell you i saw every stitch of the testimony in this trial, including my client. he took the stand, it was very difficult. he told me so. he described to me how he took the stand as a victim of childhood abuse, now a young man leading a productive life and he came in, he sat down. he looked towards mr. sandusky and he told me that mr. sandusky was staring back at him the entire time. there was an awkward moment during my client's testimony which i think is illustrative of mr. sandusky himself. there was a brief story in the warmup to these horrible events that took place where my client was describing how he met mr. sandusky. he's a young man, mr. sandusky was playing a polish gangster in a ask it and they engaged in a conversation about it. sandusky looked at my client almost adoringly.
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i thought it was awkward, odd, telling. i didn't see any of the same, any of the same towards his family. i thought the elephant in this room which could not escape this jury's attention was dottie sandusky and how there wasn't an inch of testimony, a millimeter of testimony about any affection or normal relations that he had with her or that he had with his six children who were also absent as witnesses. >> in terms of what happens now, the defense, i talked to joe amendola who was saying they're going to look at what the issues for appeal are and he feels about about things they can raise up on appeal. do you buy any of that? do you worry about that at all? >> i don't worry about it a bit. i was here from the beginning to the end. i've been following every legal
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ruling and everything here. joe amendola was on the courthouse steps retrying his case. his case was largely this was a conspiracy among the prosecutors, the police, the trial lawyers and the media, all of whom conspired to get this man. that's not the case at all. the fact of the matter is that this man was guilty the record from what i see is clean and i would expect that he now spends the rest of his life in jail. >> tom kline, i appreciate you being on tonight and our best to your client and his family. we're going to take a quick break, we'll continue to be live to the top of the hour. more just ahead. [ slap! ] [ slap! slap! slap! ] [ male announcer ] your favorite foods fighting you? fight back fast with tums. calcium rich tums goes to work in seconds. nothing works faster. ♪ tum tum tum tum tums
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well, justice was done tonight in the jerry sandusky child rape case. the jury spoke and convicted the penn state coach of 45 counts, ten accusers are now in the eyes of the law ten survivors. their allegations entirely vindicated. jason carroll was inside the courtroom when the verdict came in. your thoughts, you've had some time to reflect, you've been covering this from the beginning. what really stands out to you tonight? >> well, a couple of things. you know, what i see is a vast difference from where we are now versus where we were as you remember, anderson, several
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months ago. in the very beginning when the allegations first surfaced, there was such a sense of disbelief. how could something like this happen? how could allegations like this be connected to a man like jerry sandusky who was so well respected throughout the community. and then you gradually -- you see things chance. we saw how the folks from penn state thought penn state was being put on trial. people couldn't believe it. then things start to shift, and as more accusers came forward, as more people in the community began to long more about this case, their opinions start tod change. and of course we got to where we are tonight. where you heard that loud sort of round of applause when we came outside here, when everyone erupted into plaus when they therd the verdict. seeing the accusers testify in court was painful. it was painful to watch, as you saw these young men get up there and talk about very personal
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things, perhaps victim number six's mother said it best. after every one filed out of the courtroom and thee was there with the son and the family she said quote, nobody wins. we've all lost. and she hugged her son and they hugged each other. that's what really resonates with me. >> you spoke to one of the victim -- one of the accusers after he testified. what did he talk to you about? well, oddly enough it was victim number six. and this young man, who is now a bible student, he was sexually assaulted by jerry sandusky in a shower at penn state, inappropriately touched. and he was standing not far from where i'm standing right now. and strangely enough no one seemed to notice him standing on the side lines. so we delicately walked up to
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him and i asked him to share some of his feelings with me. what he couldn't get over was the overwhelming attention that had been brought to the case. because he wasn't really paying attention and watching the news and he was really affected by that. and to him, he said the whole thing, everything that's happened to him, still didn't really seem real. so my impression was someone who is still trying to come to terms with something that had happened to him. >> jason, you've been doing remarkable reporting through this entire process. i appreciate you staying up with us. we're going to be right back. our coverage continues. ♪
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this is cnn breaking news. our goal here has always been to bring about a fair and a just result in this case. that goal has been accomplished. >> listening to linda kelly, the pennsylvania attorney general, making comments on the courthouse steps. it is now 11:00 in the east coast of the united states. want to bring you up to date on all the breaking news this evening. former penn state coach jerry sandusky led from a courthouse in handcuffs. these the images we saw for the first time about 20 or so minutes ago. their lead defense attorney said he would be shocked if jerry is acquitted on all charges. he said that earlier today. in fact, they convicted him on 45 of the 48 counts he was charged with. sentencing could come any time in the next 90 days. now, if the verdict stands,
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